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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I'm your host Alex

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zacharis

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today we welcome Dr Shiva ayaduray to

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skeptico very interesting show I'm

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really looking forward to it you know

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any way you look at it Dr Shiva is a

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brilliant guy accomplished guy really

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his story is the embodiment of what we

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still think of as the American Dreams

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slums of Dubai member of a crippling

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Indians caste system that we often

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forget still holds a lot of sway in

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Indian society today outlawed but you

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know hopefully we'll have a little bit

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of time to talk about that but somehow

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the guy that you see on the screen and

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that we're talking about he has the

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right stuff he goes to school I I heard

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that in your high school math you

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completed all the high school math

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courses by the time you're 12 years old

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graduated when you were 14. that's

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basically right right

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yeah I mean I created the first email

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system when I was 14 my high school

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didn't have any more math classes to

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give me so I ended up going to NYU in a

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special computer science program and

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what we know as emailed today is what I

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created as a 14 year old kid before I

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came to MIT yeah we talked about the

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email thing in a minute that kind of

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picks at me a little bit so we'll talk

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about that but you go on you get

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multiple degrees from MIT like you just

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mentioned including a PhD you get a

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Fulbright scholarship

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you start these businesses

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just an incredible life story in 2020

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you ran for the the U.S Senate in

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Massachusetts and you did eventually

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lose and I'm going to talk about whether

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Trump did a rug poll on you on that

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thing or just how you felt about that

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situation you lost to

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Whitey whitemeyer who went on to lose

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two to one to the Democrat who it was

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really a locked up Democratic thing to

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begin with but you kind of fought the

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good fight and along the way you just

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take on all these kind of nuclear issues

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that you're not afraid to take on

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vaccines voter fraud you're out there

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really early on saying the just the

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super straightforward like why are we

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forcing people to take these vaccines

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Beyond questioning

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how efficacious they are or how safe

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they are you're also asking just the

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basic question that got lost in that of

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from a political standpoint you know why

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are we being forced to do that

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so just as a way of kind of wrapping up

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this intro because we are going to have

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to kind of talk about a lot of different

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things

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you kind of take on everybody in

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sometimes in a way that agitates some

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people I mean you take on people that we

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wouldn't expect you to take on as a kind

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of guy who ran for the United States

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Senate as a republican you're taking on

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tuckle Carlson you're taking on James

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O'Keefe at project veritas

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you're taking on Joe Rogan you know

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everybody is in your your your

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crosshairs and you've been coming down

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pretty hard on them and now lately what

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we'll talk about is your latest thing

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your movement

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truthfreedomhealth.com so I'm just

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trying to lay out the whole playing

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field here there's a lot to talk about

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super super excited to have you on Dr

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Shiva thanks so much for being here

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great to be here so I guess since you

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hit the email thing let me push back on

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that like here's the objection

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that I have and I think some other

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people have that we don't always hear

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dude what you did is incredible you're

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14 year old and you wrote an incredible

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program

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in the 1980s I was at the University of

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Arizona getting a PhD I wrote the

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artificial intelligence expert system I

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went on to sell it to a bunch of Fortune

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500 companies and then started an AI

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company I would never say that I wrote

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the first PC based expert system because

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there were other it was out there or in

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the thing and other people were doing it

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I just saw it as a way to make money you

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saw it as an assignment to say in 1980

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that like there weren't any messaging

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systems that's why I think people push

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back from The Tech Community saying wait

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a minute computer programmers don't call

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those really brilliant programs like the

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one that you wrote they don't call it an

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invention you don't have to agree with

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it

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no I don't get the pushback because

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we're going to talk about a lot of

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things today because if a white guy did

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it you wouldn't say that because they

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say Ray Tomlinson invented email and you

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don't have a problem with that let me

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get to the heart I do have a problem

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with that well no no let me get to the

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heart of this

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by U.S law

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I can hit it at many many different ways

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um but hopefully you'll understand this

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and the importance of this at a very

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deep level

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when Mozart wrote a Symphonies do you

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question if you wrote them what's going

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on no do you I want to ask you I I don't

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know crap about uh music

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Okay so

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it's the yes or no question do you

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question them

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again I'm trying to be straight up with

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there's a long monologue okay so if you

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want to have a discussion let's have a

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discussion

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so I want to ask you if when people say

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blah blah blah invented something do you

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question that

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generally yeah I do because I'm kind of

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a skeptical kind of person

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all right

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here are the facts

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you can go pick up uh Walter isaacson's

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book which he wrote in the middle of the

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so-called fabricated controversy on who

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invented email because when you look at

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the facts it was a 14 year old brown

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skin Indian kid

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in Newark New Jersey who invented a days

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in fact no controversy except for people

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want to fabricate a controversy and and

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that's a much much deeper issue friend

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of mine who runs Business Insider when

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he came to know about it Kevin said you

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know what's really fascinating about the

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stories why is there a controversy

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and that's what the real story is

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so here's a kid

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in 1978 by the way

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who takes the entire interoffice Mail

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system

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not just inbox outbox let's get it very

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specific

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because facts are very important and

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people tend to brush over them and it's

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inconvenient for them and even though

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sometimes they don't even know why it's

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inconvenient for them

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the inbox the outbox the folders the

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drafts every single feature in that

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inner Office Mail system

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every single feature attachments

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registered mail every single feature you

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see in modern email systems

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okay

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packed one

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wrote fifty thousand lines of code in

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what was known as a

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scientific program called portraying had

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to write all the memory handlers

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at a time when in December of 1977 which

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we found this about 20 30 years later

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a scumbag

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technical term

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David Crocker

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later

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um why don't you bring up the inventor

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of email site

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because I brought up the tech site

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because I thought these guys from my

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perspective gave a pretty good account

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were pretty much

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you sued him for defense

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you lost if you if you want me to talk

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about it I can and we can have a

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discussion but if you're going to break

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up Tech dirt a guy that we sued and you

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lost

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didn't we won The Gawker lawsuit this

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was a different lawsuit

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it was an opinion loss did they pay you

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money

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Gawker paid me 750 000 and they're

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forced to remove three defamatory

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articles it's interesting you don't want

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to bring that up well I

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where are that detector yeah the claims

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protector claims that you didn't that uh

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they didn't have to pay you any money

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and they can still run them because they

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settled out of court because we were

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going to continue the lawsuit to an

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appeal and they were forced to put legs

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but why don't you bring up The Gawker

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lawsuit that we won I I'm happy to do

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that do you want me to wait what I'm

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saying look you're bringing this up with

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the Assumption because you don't want to

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listen to the facts

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and the visceral reaction to that goes

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at a very deep issue that you don't want

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to talk about

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can have a discussion but if you're

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going to bring up garbage we should just

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end the interview

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well that that will always be your

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option here is you're talking about

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being a skeptic but you're not even

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allowing me to bring up the facts

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I'm totally willing for you to bring up

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this the fox I'm going to just let me

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know let me know when you want me to

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talk or let me know if you want me to

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end the interview but you haven't really

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addressed where I was coming from no you

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weren't no because you've already made

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an assumption I'm going down the facts

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and you're bringing up a garbage thing

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to what we want in federal court in fact

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in bankruptcy court

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and you weren't even aware of that

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well correct I was not aware of the

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right look but I am aware that they

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still have I am aware that you suit them

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for defamation and they still have their

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article up there and they're nowadays

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wait wait you don't even know the

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background they were forced

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to put up a link to the actual facts

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so we're gonna have a conversation like

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this because I'm a scientist and an

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engineer and you seem to just not want

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to have that conversation

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okay

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so if you want to have the conversation

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about who invented email and you want to

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get over potentially your own racism we

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can have a discussion about that and I

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want you to explore that

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are you willing to do that yeah yeah how

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will I do that I think that's that's

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such crazy no no no no no because I

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think you should be willing to explore

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that because when Walter Isaac's in the

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middle of this controversy wrote the

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innovators of the digital Revolution

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they're all white people

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are you wearing that

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yeah I don't I don't really like that no

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I think we should have a longer

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discussion about this because doing

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tidbits like this is a disservice to you

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as a human being but also to your

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viewers

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I take this very seriously because

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a 14 year old brown skin Indian kid

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didn't that email in fact there's no

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controversy

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and if you wanted

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the controversy and that's what I was

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trying to get across with no no why

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don't you actually listen to the person

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who's alive who was primary and that's a

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disrespect that you're doing this wrote

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a computer program what's the big deal

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mention of email it's like okay come on

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dude

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when you want to become a mature human

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being and you want to have a

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conversation we'll do that for right now

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you're coming to it with presumptions

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and I find it interesting to call

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yourself skeptico what it really means

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is that you have pre-defined agenda and

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a goal but if you want to have a comp

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you want to have an actual conversation

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go through the facts as a human being

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well I did I don't think you've

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responded to any of the things you want

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to have a conversation as a human being

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about the actual facts yes or no you

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want to point do you want to respond to

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the points yeah that's right that's the

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way you are

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you're showing great arrogance and when

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I come back at you you're calling me

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Aryan

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do you want something you want do you

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want to just leave you want to have a

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every human being should know about the

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invention of email and the fact that you

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said wow I'm a computer programmer so

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you have unconscious incompetence and if

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you're willing to follow through the guy

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that's actually why why do I have

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unconscious incompetence because

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you don't know what you don't know but

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but why does a computer programmer make

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me have listening

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do you just want to be call skeptical

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there's something that I made I kind of

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related it back to mine what do you call

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I'm like the first AI business system

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all right I would never call it an

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invention I would never call it I would

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never lead with um an actual copyright

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which is the way software inventions are

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being characterized so that means anyone

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who gets a patent you don't call what do

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you consider an invention listen if you

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want to go through the facts we can but

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if you don't

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then I don't even think you should have

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the name skeptical because you're

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actually following the original

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narrative I'm just saying that

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professional as a professional computer

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programmer all the people I know they

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would never really well

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you know what I've never called what you

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anyways

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I don't think it dismissed I don't think

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it finishes what you know you know what

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you're coming with predefined and you

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don't want to listen to the person who's

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still alive typically the inventor

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something dies and I don't want to agree

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cut me off multiple times you should go

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review this video

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I'm gonna review it I'm gonna edit it

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yeah all right so when you want to have

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a conversation let's do that and I'll be

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we can do that and if you want to talk

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about email we'll go through the whole

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thing if you want to talk stuff like

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this you say with your with your systems

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theory which again I'm

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I think I'm smart enough to know you

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know where you don't even know who I am

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a bit about system you say only 10 to 50

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people in the whole world no I said 10

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we'll see I'll play the clip I don't

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think I got it down I our movement is as

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okay he dropped the the other one that I

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got that I really like is oh the lawsuit

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of the century so he's gone you know I

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didn't know if I wanted to go with the

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email thing right from the beginning

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but I think right now I want to get this

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raw it was the right move because we

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could have spent an hour on all this

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that I like and respect the guy

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about but this really got to the core of

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it

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and man the other thing is you never

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drop from interviews like this I don't

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think I think you just I don't think you

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look good but

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he did the only thing the only thing I'm

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going to add to this is I'm going to add

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a couple of those a couple of those

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clips that I got just because

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he says I got a factual layer let's see

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if I did or not

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these are from Dr Shiva truth Freedom

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Health podcast episode 1166 that Shane

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who is a listener of skeptica who helped

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me set up this interview really the one

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driving me to do this interview I have

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to say I got halfway into kind of

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looking at Shiva and I was thinking of

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not doing the interview but I made this

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commitment that this is our journey

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shared and I love when people get

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involved in the show and help book

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guests and help research the guests so I

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really wanted to follow through at this

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and I'm glad that I did anyways here

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here are a couple of those clips these

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Concepts

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will lead you your own Consciousness

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raising no different than those people

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starting to learn how to plow oh wait a

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minute let me make a plow and let me let

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me domesticate animals you see the

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Innovation we're in a world now the

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innovation has to come from within you

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and that is why truth Freedom health is

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such a profound movement

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because we have figured this out

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not only we figured it out but we have

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it's not in some Ivory Tower by the way

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what I just shared this Concepts ten

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thousand people know system science food

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I just shared with you maybe 15

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to 50 people in the world know this

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I guess that's the first song Let me see

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if I could find this what is it our

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movement is as profound as the

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inventional fire

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hold on

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you have to raise your Consciousness to

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understand this

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we have to build community and we have

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to constantly be calling this stuff out

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way ahead of time way ahead and that's

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what we do and that is why our movement

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our movement everything we put together

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is as profound as a discovery of fire

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okay enough I didn't really want it to

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00:17:04,610 --> 00:17:02,639
turn into a hate Fest but because I

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00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:04,620
should have saw it coming doctor she's

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not you're welcome back anytime I stick

439
00:17:12,409 --> 00:17:10,380
to what I said at the beginning you are

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truly a brilliant guy in a lot of ways

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00:17:18,169 --> 00:17:16,079
and we're all complex we all say all

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00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:18,179
sorts of different stuff

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so hey